Speaking online differs from presenting on stage. In this episode, technologist and virtual training specialist Alfred Poor provides insights from his career in journalism and appearing on stages at various conferences (IRL and virtual).
In this conversation, Alfred shares lessons he's learned along his entrepreneurial journey, tips for presenting more confidently on camera, and a few conversion tips he's discovered while split-testing his landing pages.
- Network for the long-term. Short-sighted focus will get you sub-optimal results.
- Test your hypotheses. Use evidence to make decisions for your business.
- Prepare early for inevitable changes. Everything evolves over time and those that look further ahead tend to win.
- Be intentional with your virtual setup. From lighting to camera angles and depth of field, how you appear on camera does a lot before you say a word.
- Focus on the attendee experience. Consider various engagement strategies to keep people excited about showing up.
- Optimize your pages for conversion. Use split testing to determine the best elements for your webinar registration pages.
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Get to Know Alfred Poor
Bob Sparkins: In today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to keynote speaker and technologist, Alfred Poor. Alfred is the founder of Health Tech Insider, and a sought-after thought leader on virtual and conference stages. In this conversation, I get Alfred to share lessons he's learned along his entrepreneurial journey, tips for presenting more confidently on camera, and a few conversion tips he's discovered while split-testing his landing pages.
To get this episode's transcripts, links to the resources mentioned, and key takeaways, head over to leadpages.com/podcast. Now let's dive in.
Hey, Alfred. It is so great to connect with you today on the lead generation podcast. Thanks for being here.
Alfred Poor: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much.
Bob: So we have a lot of fun stuff that I can't wait to get into, but the first question I would love to ask just by way of introduction is simply this. What kind of transformation do you provide to the clients that you serve in your business?
Alfred: I'm a professional speaker and I'm a writer and a publisher and a whole bunch of things. But I think the part that's most relevant here is I actually help people become more effective in their online interactions. So Zoom meetings, online presentations, how to become more persuasive, how to become more engaging, how to make more sales, how to spend the time more effectively.
We're all going to be using Zoom and be online a lot more than we did in the past, even after the pandemic. I believe that people who are skilled at that now are actually going to have an advantage.
Bob: I know that your training is something we're going to talk about a little bit later and all that skillset, but let's rewind just a little bit and give people a little bit more background. So back in the day, you weren't a public speaker. You weren't teaching people how to teach and train.
You were a tech journalist for CNET, PC Magazine, and other publications. You've done your own publishing. What had you take the leap from doing most of your communication via writing professionally to actually speaking for a living?
Alfred: So I actually started off as a middle school science teacher and discovered that as much as I love teaching, I'm just not cut out for 40-minute segments. I work on a more expanded time scale than that and discovered writing. But basically, if you look back at my career, my superpower has been my ability to take complex concepts and explain them to people in ways that they can use for practical purposes.
And so for the 20 some years I wrote for PC Magazine, that's what I was doing was helping them make sense out of the exploding PC market. And I did a lot of speaking back then, but it was all pro bono showing the flag and talking at conferences and things like that.
After I stopped writing for PC Magazine, I spent some time helping people understand flat panel displays because we were transitioning from analog to digital broadcast in this country. And people were all confused about LCD and plasma and all that.
And after that wound down, I started helping people understand wearable technology. And so I actually have a publication and industry newsletter about wearable and mobile devices for health and medical applications. So the common thread through all of that is technology and helping people get a hold of it in ways that they can use.
Bob: That's awesome. And I love the education background of course, as I personally also formally a teacher and I think that lends itself well to being a solid marketer of a business because you want to explain things to people, get the value from it. You're not just there to dump the information and skedaddle.
So I think that's really good. And as I was preparing for this chat, I noticed that you have recently hit your 10-year anniversary on your official keynote speaking business. Is there a favorite? And like you mentioned, you've been speaking longer than that, but from a “pay me, I show up, I give a talk” kind of perspective, happy decade to you.
Is there a favorite experience that you've had on stage that maybe was an accidental positive? I know speaking often provides some improvisational opportunities or some other fun thing that was a surprise. Anything like that sticks out in your mind as you look back?
Alfred: Well, I think one of the highlights that I'd have to point out is when I spoke to a digital health conference in Melbourne, Australia. Not only was I the keynote speaker and honorary program chair, but I also was moderator for the event. And so I got to interact with all these really smart people and got a trip to Australia in the bargain. So that was a lot of fun.
The other one I think I would have to pick would be the experience I've had working at the consumer electronic show, CES in Las Vegas. Not for the past couple years, but prior to that, I spoke there almost every year for five or six years.
And not just speaking on stage and moderating discussion groups, but also interviewing the speakers for their On Demand TV studio recording. So they're all up on YouTube.
I love not being the smartest guy in the room. So many bright people with so many great ideas and I just have such a lot of fun interacting with them. And the same goes for the clients that I work with on this virtual presentation skills concept. Get to meet lots of people with great ideas and great projects that they're working on.
Bob: Yeah. I imagine that you get to not only learn from them, but you also introduce them to wider audiences that may not have known that they were there in the first place.
Alfred: And I'm also a connector at heart. That's one of the main themes through all the stuff that I do is I'm a natural networker and I love to put people together. So very often I'll be able to say, "Oh, what you're doing here, you might be interested in the battery technology that this company's developed, because it might solve some of those problems you're talking about," things like that.
The Power of Old School Social Networking
Bob: Yeah. Speaking of that, you and I have a mutual acquaintance, Bruce Brown, and his wife Marge Brown. And I wanted to ask you, first of all, shout out to them, great to have met them in the past. And they introduced me to you way back in the day from our time in Leland, North Carolina.
But you did your PhD in networking. And I'm wondering if there's something about that besides what we just talked about in having been introduced more than 15 years ago now to each other through an acquaintance, what aspects of networking did you study way back then that you think is still applicable to the way businesses should be operating today?
Alfred: So it's so ironic because when I was writing for PC Magazine and I told people I had a doctorate in networking, but it's not computer networks, they thought that was pretty funny. But now I say I have it, but it's not online social networks. It's old school, original without computer social networks. And as you, I was coming out of education and I was curious about why change is so difficult for schools.
And there's certainly to this day enormous opportunity to improve the education system. I got very interested in a professor at Yale who had a project that was about ways to get communities, people within their community to share their resources without spending money. Somebody has a space, they let somebody else use it to promote some kind of event which supports something else. And it's a rising tide that raises all boats kind of thing.
So my whole dissertation and study was about that process and how you can help encourage those kinds of connections. I love to tell people this came to me naturally. This is something I've always been interested in.
When I graduated from college, it was not a particularly great time to get a teaching job. And other people were sending out dozens and dozens of resumes and query letters. I sent out two resumes and got three offers and I did that by networking, by connecting to the job and then pretty much the resume was confirming what we'd already discussed.
Bob: I love that idea of what this mutually beneficial society that essentially you're creating and you're not doing it for some immediate financial return, which I think a lot of people in 2022, they want to bring people together, but they want to get a cut of the action.
And what I'm hearing from what you're saying is you can get a lot of benefit without looking for that short-term gain.
Alfred: Yes, and I think it's actually shortsighted to focus on that short-term gain. You get distracted by that. I often turn down affiliate arrangements. Just, I'm happy to promote your event. And if you care to promote something for me, that's great. But again, rising tide raises all boats.
I'm concerned about the audience. Whether it's in writing, publishing, whatever, they're the ones driving the transaction and unless I can deliver value to them, it's not worth doing.
Working Through the Early Challenges of a Business
Bob: Very cool. Now I'm sure that over time, the success of your business has been not a straight line. It's not been this nice curve from the left to the right. Can you pinpoint a particular obstacle that you still look back to as a great pivot point, might have been a challenge at the time, but there was something about it that you persevered through that you can share?
Alfred: Right from the start. Taught for three years here in Philadelphia at a private school and discovered that the classroom wasn't for me. Took a year off, started my doctoral program, which led me to a job in Connecticut working in the school district there, which allowed me the opportunity to put into practice a lot of these theories that I had developed, which was very exciting.
And then I saw these computers coming along. I think the IBM PC had just come out and was beginning to see how they could multiply the efforts of people in very innovative and productive ways. And I walked away from an essentially tenured speaking teaching position with all the benefits and retirement and all that good stuff and left to start my own consulting company.
And I still have the first $25 check or whatever it was that I got for consulting. And it was definitely a struggle, but I discovered that was a mode that worked well for me. I'm a great team player, but I'm most productive if you give me my piece to do to fit into the rest of everybody's project rather than get deep in the meetings and the mechanics of it. Yeah. And I have not had a job since.
Think Like a Scientist in Business
Bob: That's awesome. And I know that you've had a lot of pathways that you've taken on. Obviously, you've worn many hats—journalist, teacher, someone who's speaking and now training—but originally you were a scientist and you wanted to do science work. Is there anything from your Harvard science degree that you still bring into your entrepreneurship?
Alfred: Absolutely. So I was trained as a biologist and I was focused on the whole animal biology as opposed to the biochemistry stuff that was becoming very important at that time. But the scientific method and the role of evidence-based persuasion is something that's just ingrained in me.
I probably had that before I went to Harvard, but it's just DNA, part of my being. And one of the things I limit today is when you look for reviews of computer equipment, it's really difficult to find anything meaningful.
PC Magazine Labs was just a paradise because we were given the space, the time, and the resources to really bang on products. And when we said this one's better than that one, we had objective proof that we could point to and say, "Yeah, this is not opinion. This is based on these facts."
And that's covered all my work ever since with the health and medical stuff. It's great to say you do something, but show me the studies that prove that you, first of all, are doing what you think you're doing. And secondly, that it actually has a positive impact.
Keep an Eye on Inevitable Changes
Bob: Now I want to shift gears in just a moment towards your speaking skill set, particularly for some lessons that you can teach our audience. But I am curious just from that science and health tech area of your life, is there a stat or an observation that you typically like to share during your keynotes that our entrepreneurial audience of The Lead Generation would benefit from knowing?
Alfred: Sure. Markets evolve. And when I talk about the wearable industry, I've seen this movie before. I was around for the PC compatible, the IBM lookalike computers back when that happened. And that was an explosive, big bang market with lots of brands and lots of innovation and lots of duplication of effort.
Same thing's going on with wearables. And I think it's very important for entrepreneurs to understand not where the market is today, but where it's headed because you're catching a falling knife. It's changing so rapidly. And if you aim for where the market is today, you're going to miss it because it's going to be someplace else by the time you get there.
The example I give is five years ago, you take a little circuit board and put it on a wristband. You had it at CES. That was a wearable. And about three years ago, two years ago, if it had nice packaging and it had a good design or something like that, you had a product.
Today if you don't have clinical studies or some sort of objective, ideally third-party studies of what it is you're measuring, what the benefits are and with numbers attached, you don't have a product. And one of the things I've learned, again, being in the room with lots of people who are way smarter than me, I've noticed that one of the big things that entrepreneurs do is they have a piece of the puzzle and they have a really good piece and they have some innovation that's really good. They just figured that they'll make the rest of it work somehow. And that's not enough. The old saying, build a better mousetrap. The world will be the path to your door. It doesn't work that way anymore. You need to have the whole business plan.
You need to have supply chains. You need to have marketing. You need to know who your market is and how you're going to do it. And you have to have all that worked out. You can't just stumble around because you'll run out of time and money. So the big thing I would say to entrepreneurs is don't be afraid to ask for help, be sure to look around and make sure you understand the pond you're going to go swimming in before you jump in.
Be Intentional about Virtual Public Speaking Excellence
Bob: Very valuable so far. I'd love to switch gears now to your zone of entrepreneurial genius that is currently front and center in your life. And that is public speaking and virtual presentations in particular.
So I’ve got a couple questions for you around this, but the first is simply do you find that as you're bringing this to your audience that there's a misconception that they have around public speaking or virtual presentations that you just constantly want to fix and hammer out of people?
Alfred: So the way I put it is you and I both know people who are skilled and well trained and experienced in face to face meetings. They're very intentional about how those get structured. They know what wardrobe they're going to wear that's the appropriate level for their audience.
They know where they're going to meet and how they're going to greet people and what they're going to say and all that. Those same people when you give them a Zoom invitation, they take their laptop wherever they are, they pop it open and they start talking. With none of that intention and preparation.
And it's such a shame because a lot of people talk about Zoom fatigue. I don't believe Zoom fatigue exists. I believe bad Zoom fatigue is real. Just as there's not meeting fatigue, there's bad meeting fatigue when you're in person.
So people haven't given enough thought. And in many cases just haven't been exposed to a lot of the issues about engaging virtually online. One of my favorite things to say is everything we've been taught about speaking on stage is wrong when you're online. And so there's so much, you need to unlearn and new things that you need to learn, but none of it's rocket science.
And I like to talk about the three Is. That you want to make improvements that are Incremental, Intentional, and Impactful. Pick the ones that are going to have the biggest impact, make small changes, and just build on that. But do that intentionally, not just open up and fire. Fire, ready, aim doesn't work.
Bob: So I think you've started to address this. I'd like to dig a little bit deeper for those that are brand new to the world of virtual presentations, what do they need to get right out of the gate?
Alfred: A lot of people know pieces of it, but then there are other pieces of it that I don't, in interacting with people about this, it's my feeling that a lot of them have never even thought about some of these issues. For example, one of the ones I like to talk about is people know not to sit in front of a bright window because then your face is in shadow and people can't see you.
The meta issue is if people can't see you, if people can't hear you, it takes a lot of work to pay attention to what you're saying and they're going to give up and tune out. And that's not unique to online. We've both been to conferences where the ballroom sound system was terrible, where the lighting was bad or the speaker was standing in a shadow or something like that.
You give up after a while because you can't understand what they're saying and you tune out, start checking your email. So it's not unique to online, but it's important again to be intentional about things like that. So people know don't sit in front of a bright window. It can be good to have a bright window in front of you to give you nice, even light.
But I don't recommend people do that because it's not a professional solution. You can't count on that. When the storm rolls in and the clouds go dark, you've lost your lighting. So for me, it is a better approach to come up with some sort of lighting that you can count on that you just don't have to think about.
You just throw the switch and the lamps or floor lamps or whatever you might be using. They go on and you're going to be good. You don't have to think twice about it.
Frame Your Body Like a News Anchor
Bob: Fantastic. Now I'm sure there's plenty of members of our audience in The Lead Generation here who have been doing presentations for a while. They've got the sound good. They have the lighting and they feel like they are doing the basics and maybe even that intermediate stage. What do you say to them to level it up to that next level?
Alfred: So one of the biggest mistakes that I see people making and just look at any Brady Bunch Zoom meeting, and you will see that the majority of people are framed like this. A little bit of the neck, maybe a little bit of the shoulders, then the head, sometimes the heads cut off, but like that.
And I was talking with a psychology professor from Stanford, who is an expert on this and has done a lot of studying about communication over virtual channels. And he made a really good point. He said, "If somebody were speaking to you in person face to face and they were this close to you, you're in my space. Back off."
And it's going to set up this reaction where they're going to want to step away from you, which is exactly the opposite of the reaction that you want from an interaction.
So he made the point, which I think is so telling: the more of your torso that's visible in the frame, the more open, engaging, trustworthy you appear, and don't take his word for it or my word for it. Just watch television. Watch the news channels, if anybody's watching news channels these days.
Bob: On YouTube, of course. The clips on YouTube.
Alfred: Right. But you'll notice that you will see that they're all framed with a little space above their head. And then from somewhere between the bottom of the rib cage to the belt is the bottom of the frame. And it's much more engaging. It also makes your hand motions visible.
And again, it gives you the opportunity to be intentional about it. If you're framed tight, then you have to bring it up here to your face. And it just looks funny and your motions don't look natural, but if you're framed like this, you can show things and it looks more natural and it's easier.
So that's one of them.
The second one that’s related to that is you need to have your camera at eye level so you're not looking down on people or having that up your nose camera angle. And I've yet to find anybody who that's flattering for. Get the camera up at your eye level, which then creates a whole bunch of other knock on issues about where your camera's going to be.
Pretty much, you're going to end up having to use an external webcam because you can't get your camera up there and still be able to use your laptop. And so it's better to have a camera separate so you can place it further away from you and at the right level.
Then the next part is then you have to figure out how you're going to be able to keep your eye on the camera and not be looking down at your screen the whole time. That's the next realm of issues that people need to address.
Connect with Distant Attendees
Bob: Awesome. And then for those that are doing all those things, what kind of engagement structures do you like to put in place in your presentations to make sure people are still enjoying their time and getting the value from a presentation?
Alfred: I just came across a wonderful site called WeAnd.me. And it's two guys who have made a real study about online engagement and they've taken a bunch of the things that I have had in mind and taken them a bunch of them a bit further, but one of their sayings is so key.
They say connection before content. You need to connect with your audience before they're going to listen to you and be receptive to your content. Now I, like so many other people, have understood this and I start my webinars, I say, "Before we get started, type in the chat box, tell me where you're from. Always interested to hear where everybody's from," and that's fine, but it doesn't go anywhere far enough.
So I'm now doing more of that and asking questions, engaging them, asking one of the questions from these guys from WeAnd.Me, they have little cards that you can get and you can hold up. This is a what is a talent or skill you've always wanted and why?
And getting people to go inside themselves and answer that. But it's also, I believe that audiences in-person or virtually they want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be acknowledged.
And so having this kind of question to engage with before you start pouring stuff into their brain opens the channel and acknowledges that you see them, that they're people, that they're not just at the endpoint in a network where you're spewing data.
Speaker Only Webinars vs. Group Zoom Meetings
Bob: I'm curious what your thoughts are about this. A lot of times you've been on our conversion coaching sessions with Leadpages and it's set up as a webinar. So I'm the only one on camera and everybody else is not.
And that was originally in part because of my background and using other technology where when you did allow other people on camera, you had to deal with dogs barking and people flushing the toilet or all this other stuff.
Obviously, you can do Zoom meetings as a meeting. And so you have your Brady Bunch screen, or you can do the webinars. I've recently experimented in a program we just did where we did it as a meeting and took the leap of faith that everybody would either be muted themselves or I could quickly mute them if something were to come up.
Where do you draw your line between when you're going to set something up as a meeting versus when you're going to do it as a webinar for your audience to be visible or not?
Alfred: I'm still in the experimental stage too. One of my favorite quotes is, "Once you've ceased to be a student, you have ceased." And that was by the great philosopher, Mick Jagger, but I love learning. Because you got to learn if you're going to be able to share information with other people. You can't just have a fixed inventory of information that you share and not have it alive and dynamic. So I'm still experimenting with this, but I would say the answer to your question is numbers. I think that once you get over about 10 or 12 people, it's going to be difficult to have a discussion in one room.
That's why breakout sessions are so great because if you've got a hundred people in the room, you can have 10, 20 breakouts. As the instructor, as the teacher, the coach, it's scary to relinquish control of that process for the 10, 15 minutes, whatever it's going to take to give them enough time to have the exchange that you want.
Yeah. You can jump into rooms and check on things and make sure everything's going okay, but you're not going to be the full-fledged participant in any of them. And so there's a lot of trust involved there, but I believe that's where you draw the line between trying to have everybody engaged together.
There's a door number three though, and this is what you do with your coaching sessions for Leadpages. And that's you bring one person up and we're going to look at your pages, we're going to talk about this. And that one person becomes “every person.” Their problem may not be my problem, but the stuff you go through tells me things that I wouldn't have heard otherwise.
And maybe I'm filing it away for the future when I do encounter that problem or new way of thinking about things, but being able to bring one person on stage to act as a stand-in for everybody in the audience, I think is a very effective strength.
Bob: I would agree with you 100%. And I know that there is an experience level that grows over time when you do that of being able to trust that the person you bring on stage is going to provide value to everybody. And you also need the empathetic approach of steering them if they start to go off-tangent or they start to go in places that don't really serve your audience. And I think that's one of the trickiest things to try to master.
Alfred: And that's one of the reasons why I have my enormous preference for any engagement, whether it's on stage or on online is to have the questions come in writing. Because then I can pick one that I think is going ... First of all, I can see a bunch of questions all at once and see which one relates to what other people are asking.
And so then I can pull that one out and then pull that person up and say, "Okay, let's talk about this." Having some information that leads me to think that this is going to be useful to a significant number of people. And I always believe that if somebody asks a question, there are a hundred people who aren't brave enough to ask it, but they still have the same problem.
Testing Landing Pages for Webinar Registrations
Bob: Yeah, for sure. All right. So as we bring this final chapter into this episode, I want to talk just for a minute with you about some of the learnings that you continue to do around your landing pages. And one of the things that I've been excited about following you over the last few years and having you on conversion coaching calls is this elaborate amount of testing that you do.
Elaborate may not be the right word, but consistently testing and experimenting with different aspects of your landing pages. So I would hope that you can share maybe a finding or two that you've had and maybe a surprise along the way with your numbers.
And just to get an idea of when people are thinking about their own landing pages, whether they're using Leadpages or something else that they start to think more as a scientist and experimenting with different things. So what are you finding and what has surprised you?
Alfred: So the first thing is I have to say one of the things that keeps me in Leadpages is the excellent analytics. I can track stuff in ways that is extremely useful to me. And as we've already talked about, I'm evidence-based driven. And so give me numbers and then I can make decisions.
And so much of what we do as entrepreneurs is flying blind. Even when you're testing, there's a lot of stuff you don't know. Am I reaching the right audience? And is this the right product? There's all kinds of things. But the Leadpages split test tool provides some really valuable information.
And one of the big tenets for me is: change one thing. Because if you change three things, you don't know which change was the one that had the impact for good. Or if you just change one thing at a time, you get a much better picture.
And the other thing I will say unsolicited is Leadpages makes it so darn easy to split test. I have created split tests in as little as 10, 15 minutes, and that's soup and nuts, changing things on my website, on my WordPress site to make sure that the pages show up properly, and all that. It's crazy how easy that is.
So one of the biggest surprises has to be when I came on one of the sessions and you were kind enough to walk through my page and you didn't like the color that I used and you suggested using a different color instead for the theme for the page.
And I ran the test and my color outperformed. I did not expect that, but that has to be a big surprise. I've now got a landing page that is converting pretty steadily at 45, 50%, maybe better. And I continue to make changes.
The beauty is that I have a monthly webinar. And so every month I have another opportunity to change something and try something else. If the numbers are small, I typically leave it be because there's not enough data there to know whether or not the differences were meaningful, but after I get some data, I've got a winner. Okay, what can I do to that winner to make it even better and go on to the next one? Yeah, it's a very valuable feature for me.
Bob: Awesome. So the last time you ran your test or you mentioned before, and I think it was a shirt color if I remember right compared to the page color, what did you test last month? What are you going to test the next month?
Alfred: From that original text-only landing page, I added a video instead of the banner block at the top of the page. I replaced that with just a video. No text at all, just a video. And that converted way better than the text blocks did. Then I tested putting the headline and some kicker text underneath the video and tested that against just the video alone and the text made a huge difference.
10 point. I think it was a 10-point swing for the text. So my current test is going to be replacing the headline and kicker text with a different approach and see if that has an impact.
Bob: And I think, I don't recall if you said that the text was above the video and then below, or was it text items below the video?
Alfred: No, I had the video in a box. I use Vimeo for my video and it was very easy to put Vimeo on my Leadpages pages. The integrations are just wonderful, but that's a whole ‘nother story, but no, I put a headline above the video and then I had smaller texts below it. And that is the current winner.
So now I'm going to try tweaking the headline and lower text, see if a different approach is going to make a difference.
Alfred: I think I'm also at the point where the landing page is converting fine, but I want to see if I can set up the audience to be more receptive to closing at the end of the webinar. That's the next mission. So I'm 50%. I'm very happy with that as a conversion rate. I'm not greedy. I'll take that.
Bob: Yeah. Those are great numbers. And I imagine one of the next things, if we were on a coaching call right now, I'd encourage you to do a split test of that thank you page to see how the impact of what you do there changes the attendance rate, changes their receptivity towards buying, etc.
Kudos to continuously experimenting and always learning. That's great.
Connect with Alfred for More
Bob: All right, Alfred, it's been a pleasure to have you on The Lead Generation podcast. I would encourage you to, first of all, I have one final question, but as you spoke about your split testing, it also I think behooves us as a educational group here to make sure people go to find out more from you in your monthly training, but also to see what the current winner is in your split test, perhaps. So where can people find your speaker training that you're doing each month?
Alfred: I hold them the third Thursday of every month and I have two times. For the east coast, it's one in the morning, one in the afternoon. So the morning can pick up the European audience. The afternoon picks up the west coast and others.
And the next one in July will be on July 21st. The registration's the same every month. So it's speakerspringboard.com/demonstration. And I will also mention if you have people around the world, in August, I'll also be doing a special evening session, a third session that day in order to make it more easier for folks in Australia and New Zealand and east Asia to take part. But when you land on that slash demonstration page, you will see one of the current test landing pages.
Bob: Fantastic. So my final question to you, Alfred is, and you've already dropped a couple along the way, but do you have a favorite quote or mantra that you love to share or just to think about as you're going about your entrepreneurial pursuits?
Alfred: So it's about intentionality. And one of my favorites is if you don't know where you're going, you're liable to wind up someplace else.
Bob: Love it. Love it. Thank you so much, Alfred for being here for The Lead Generation. Really enjoyed our conversation and looking forward to seeing all those continual improvements, incremental and large that you're doing for your own business, but also the lives that you're transforming through what you do. Thanks so much for being here.
Alfred: Thank you so much. And it's always a pleasure to speak with you.