Quick take: Two filmmaker pals from Portland are paving the way for side hustlers to pursue their dreams.
We're back for Season 2 after a quick summer break.
Our first season featured 20 people you should know like Pat Flynn, ChihYu Smith, Ramon Ray, and Nancy Marmolejo, just to name a few.
This season features more remarkable origin stories and marketing lessons for you to learn that will fire you up for your own business.
I recently had the pleasure of sitting down with Michael Hall and Chris Sakr, the co-founders of ShoHawk Media in Portland, Oregon. We talk about the lessons they learned creating their feature documentary, Generation Freedom, how they collaborate on projects while having day jobs, and their approach to editing their content.
Transcripts, resources, and top-takeaways are below.
Bob: Michael and Chris, thank you so much for joining me for today's episode.
Chris: Thank you for having us.
Michael: Yeah, oh my gosh, thanks for having us. Super honored to be here. We're huge fans of Leadpages, so really appreciate the opportunity. This is great.
Bob: We're going to get into a lot of cool things, I think, in our conversation today, but I always like to start our conversations with a question about the impact that you have in the work that you do. How would you explain what it is that the audience receives from the kind of work that the two of you do? Michael, why don't we start with you?
Michael: Most recently, we've been working on this documentary called Generation Freedom. It's currently out, and it's all about how to build a small business or a micro business. It's really for beginners, just to show them that they can transition into something that is meaningful, and they can have an impact on the world.
The documentary is really a step-by-step on how to do that. We're providing our audience with the how, and Chris you can jump in, but we've had incredibly positive feedback, and shown people that there is a way to actually do something meaningful with your life.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that the documentary is part of a two-pronged sort of deal, and it does tie into the other prong, which is ShoHawk.com, which is our filmmaking website. That's another way that we provide value to an audience of aspiring filmmakers, and young filmmakers who just want to see how they can get their foot in the door, be it through freelance, or through independent filmmaking.
We try to show them the way with tailored content, including podcasts and blogs. It's sort of a two-sided thing, but with the film as well, the response has been outstanding so far. People are really, really quite engaged by it.
Bob: I know that we're excited about what you're putting together here on the Leadpages front, so kudos to the two of you for putting that together.
Chris: Thank you.
Michael: Thank you.
Bob: Chris, let's start with you on this next question. Both of you have full-time gigs that you're currently working at, and you have your filmmaking businesses and side hustles. How did you get started doing what you do?
Chris: Yeah, as far as independent filmmaking, or just my interest in filmmaking specifically, it actually began with Mike when we were in about fifth grade. We started by shooting these little short films with his dad's VHS camera, big VHS camera. Slowly, we graduated up, I saved up a bunch of money and got my own camera, and the love story of us with filmmaking began there. We made a bunch of short films throughout high school, and then eventually graduated to feature films in the college years and adult years. That led us to this day. It's just been a long learning process.
Bob: Michael, I'd love to hear if there's an anecdote of maybe a high school project that the two of you worked on, or something, where it just was epic. Your friends still talk about that one time in class when you showed a video. Is there something like that?
Michael: Oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, this is a really good story, and Chris and I were just talking about this. In sixth grade, we were tasked with a project to make. Chris correct me if I'm wrong, but it was about Greek mythology. It was our first collaboration together. The Matrix was huge at the time, and we're like, "How do we tie in our passion of the Matrix, with making this Greek mythology movie?”
And we went out. We had a bunch of friends and got them all together. We were wrangling all these sixth graders and directed all these actions scenes, where we were running up trees. The response was so good in our class, our teacher called our parents and left a voicemail. I remember getting home for dinner and hearing my teacher on the phone, and just thinking, oh my God, what did Chris and I do? I thought we were in huge trouble.
What trouble are we in? We thought it was going to be like, "Oh, the action was so realistic, that it was inappropriate for sixth graders." For the first 10 seconds of that voice recording, I was like, "Oh my, we are in such deep trouble."
Then she broke into how excited she was about our futures, and so excited to see what we could do in the world of filmmaking. That we really the first time that Chris and I were like, "Oh my God. We could actually do something with this."
Chris: We can do something with this, Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris: Also, it was when we realized that we could be more right than our parents, which probably made a lasting impression because our parents were terrified that it was too violent, and we were going to…
Michael: Yeah. No, that's true, because... That's true. They wanted to shut down production that day.
Bob: That's really great that you needed to take production into your own hands, and have your producer credit, instead of relying on other folks.
Bob: We're doing this show recorded during the week of Teacher Appreciation Week, so do you happen to remember the name of that teacher?
Chris: Ms. Dunn.
Michael: Yeah, Ms. Dunn. Yeah, I'm not sure if she's been married.
Chris: Yeah, I don't know.
Michael: Then, she went by Ms. Dunn. She was great.
Chris: She was the best, yeah.
Michael: She was the best.
Bob: Fantastic. As a former high school teacher, I love hearing those types of stories, so thanks for sharing that with our audience.
Chris: Oh, fantastic.
Why pursue a side hustle?
Bob: You obviously have the skillset and the passion for video making. Why have you turned it into a business, as opposed to just doing it as part of a job? Why this business, and why now?
Michael: Yeah, that's a great question. For me, right out of college, I got a job working for a big TV show. This was back in 2011, 2010. I realized how grueling the hours were. It was an NBC show called Grimm, and I was working five days a week, 17 and 18-hour days. That was the first time that I really got on to entrepreneurship because I was working so many hours. I was driving places, and I started listening to podcasts like Smart Passive Income, and everything that's out there.
I really saw the amount of time I was putting into those projects versus what I was getting paid out, and I realized there was a huge disconnect there. I worked my way up the chain over the years. I moved on and worked on films, and then in commercial work. I always come back to this idea of not trading time for money, and that ties into the documentary that we made, and it ties into our ethos at the business really, doing the work up front, to create something that we're proud of, and then we can put it out on the market.
Chris: For me, I think the motivation is only slightly different. Obviously, we're pretty aligned in many ways, but I think my motivation is mostly just the difficulty of making a sustainable career out of being an artist. That became very, very apparent to me at a pretty young age. I actually dropped out of college to pursue a job in production that was offered to me, while I was, I believe, a sophomore in college. I was working full time in retail. We were making our first film, and I was a full-time student. I got offered a job as an assistant editor at a start-up. I went to work for them, and I actually dropped out of school to pursue that job.
I cut my hours significantly to the point where I almost left my retail job, and then within about eight months, that company caved. That was a huge lesson to me. I remember being on the phone with Mike, while he was off in Eugene at college, and I was working at the start-up being, "Oh my God. I'm learning so much. I'm learning so much", and also telling him, "I don't understand how they're running this business this way. They're just burning money like crazy." I don't know if Mike remembers that.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris: We were always having these phone calls, and then when the company caved, I had to go back to my retail job, and I wasn't in school anymore. I felt like a total failure.
Then we released our feature film, which wasn't released to the fanfare that we had anticipated. It was a big learning year, and really what I got out of it, as Mike ended up going down the road of getting into business, and sharing a lot of what he learned, it was like, we have to take ownership of this holistically.
The financial component, the business component, and we have to build a brand for ourselves that's sustainable for the long term, so we're less dependent on other people to make our artistic dreams and ultimately our careers come true.
How to make epic mistakes
Bob: That sounds really fascinating. I'd love to hear more about that at some point. It brings to mind to me, this idea that there are mistakes to be made. Some of them are circumstantial, and outside of your control, and some of them are the consequences of your own doing. Have there been any mistakes that you've made where you went into it thinking it was going to be awesome, realized it was a mistake, had to learn from it and pivot? Often, we learn a lot from those types of experiences. Does something come to mind for you?
Michael: Every day.
Michael: No, but I think that the big on that Chris touched on was our first feature film. We spent two years on this thing. We spent a ton of our investors' money. We raised about $6,000 before Kickstarter, so we went to our friends and family. It was not something that people really wanted to see. It was something that we thought was interesting, but at the end of the day, we released it without really doing any validation. We didn't go to the market and ask, "What do people actually want to see on the screen?" It was a bit of a flop. It didn't get into any film festivals.
People were very mixed in their reaction, and that was a really tough learning moment for us, because we had spent so much time and effort putting everything into this one project, and it completely flopped.
Chris: Yeah, it was terrible. It was also the product of being, not to get too far down, I know this isn't like an arts podcast, so not to get too far down that rabbit hole, but it was also the product of young people being young and learning, and spreading their wings, and just sort of throwing everything they have and every inspiration that comes their way into one thing, which isn't necessarily a healthy way to create something.
You have to be true to that thing, which was an important lesson in that process. I do think that the same rules apply to a business, to a micro-business, to anything that you take on in the long term. That you have to look at what this thing is, define this thing, and stay true to that thing. You might get a million pieces of inspiration to do a million different features or a million different things. Ultimately, you have to be true to the thing that you're doing, and that was also a big lesson there.
Bob: Does that flop have a name?
Michael: Yeah, it's called The Painted City. You can find it on IMDB, but that's about it.
Chris: Find the trailer, the trailer's really good.
Michael: Yeah, the trailer's great.
Fruit borne from failure
Bob: I'm curious if there's anything about that film that was then the seed of the next project, or a future project, or was there some lesson, besides what you just mentioned Chris? Was there some artistic discovery though in that project, that informed a future project?
Chris: There was a lot, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, there was a ton. For me, we shot the film over a two-year period, and our tastes and our interests had changed quite a lot during that period. We were approaching each scene very differently, from a different creative lense. The end product felt like a very patchwork quilt, and it was apparent. People came out of the theater scratching their heads being like, "Was that supposed to be a comedy? Was it a drama? I don't really know the direction that you guys were going in."
That was a big catalyst for us to really make sure we were clear about the direction of the project before we even went in, and we were completely on the same page, and that's how we've approached all of our projects since The Painted City.
Bob: I can imagine that spending two years on any project turns into some sort of disjointed, from beginning to end, especially if it's the type of project where there's editing involved. Have you tried to condense the time that any new project takes so that you avoid that issue as well?
Chris: That is a great question. Yeah, I think that it requires a ton of discipline, is ultimately what it is. It just requires knowing what that thing is, and staying true to that thing. I think, actually, you've led me to what my answer to the previous question would be, which is, I learned that there are a lot of things that I like, and there are a lot of different approaches that I like. There are a lot of different genres and subject matters that I'm interested in, and condensing the timeline though I haven't successfully been able to do it yet, is a huge priority of mine from a filmmaking standpoint. Generation Freedom, this documentary actually took about, what? Like two years really.
Michael: It was longer man. It was about two-and-a-half to three.
Chris: Yeah, three.
Michael: From the initial concept to the final release, was about two to three years.
Chris: Right, yeah. Similar to the other film that I have actually run parallel. It's the time, money, conundrum. If you don't have one, you have to compensate with the other, or you define those parameters for yourself.
Condensing the production time is a huge lesson that I learned, and also just instead of throwing everything, every inspiration into one thing, that level of focus and being able to spread that across multiple things was a big lesson that I learned, because there were great moments in Painted City that I'm still very, very proud of, and great achievements that we made from a technical standpoint. And just the fact that we pulled it together with such little money, I'm still really proud of. Taking those lessons and transposing them to more focused projects was a big thing.
How to validate your business idea
Bob: Mike you mentioned a moment ago, this idea of validating your idea, and one of the reasons why it flopped is you just didn't know if the audience would appreciate what you were putting together. It can be hard sometimes to validate an idea that might take a little while to actually bear fruit. How do you that, either in the filmmaking world or in any artistic endeavor, to know that there will be an audience for what you're going to be creating?
Michael: Yeah, so specifically with the documentary, we took a very... It was an approach that we talked to Pat Flynn about in the documentary itself. He talks about his PLAN, that's something that he discusses in his book, Will It Fly. You're really addressing your target market's problems.
What we did with the documentary, was that we would go out on Reddit Forums, or different entrepreneurship places on the internet and really ask people what they wanted to see in the documentary. We did that through surveys, and we would do that just by asking really simple, direct questions, whether it be on Twitter or social media.
“Stay away from friends and family, because we really wanted to hear from our target market, and hear what they had to say because your friends and family are just going to sugar coat it.”
Throughout the filmmaking process of actually putting the edit together, we would ask people to review certain scenes of the documentary, and just give us their honest feedback. We would usually do this, you think about studios doing test screenings, and it was a very simple version of that, where we would go out and either put a Google form together or have people give us their unbiased opinion.
I will say that we have done that in the past, but it's usually been, friends and family. That was a big learning for us as well, to stay away from friends and family, because we really wanted to hear from our target market, and hear what they had to say because your friends and family are just going to sugar coat it. They're going to tell you everything's great, and that's not helpful in the long run. It can feel good at the moment, but it really doesn't help the project.
Chris: There's also multiple levels of validation. Mike and I have very different tastes, so my impulses aren't the same as his impulses on how to do anything, really, necessarily, which is great. That's a great asset. We can use each other to bounce things off of, and then from there, you expand outward. Just knowing that, and feeling ultimately safe and comfortable doing that with one another, which is something, it's a practice, but it pays off in dividends, I think.
How to make a project better through collaboration
Bob: Yeah, I'm interested to hear a little bit more about this concept of collaboration and partnership. Most of the audience in The Lead Generation that we've talked to on this podcast are doing their own thing. They might have a team that they're instructing on doing things, but it sounds like the two of you are pretty equitable in your partnership as you do your projects. How do you deal with the times when an idea has some friction, and what tips have you learned to do for yourself, and that you would offer to other people who run into that sort of thing?
Chris: I don't know. Do we really run into any serious friction? I mean, friction doesn't really tend to happen with the project itself in my experience.
Chris: It's usually just like, you work on something for long enough, you're going to get frustrated with each other in a general sense, right?
“I think that you have to strip away your ego a little bit, and understand that you're not always going to have the best idea in the room.”
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, since we've been working together for such a long period of time, we have the benefit of pretty open and honest communication without getting defensive, which I think is great. If we have different opinions about something, we're able to talk about it, strip back the true meaning of what we're trying to get to, and just go back and forth. Sometimes, Chris has a better idea, and if that idea is better, I am totally okay with that, as long as it's going to serve the project.
Michael: I think that you have to strip away your ego a little bit, and understand that you're not always going to have the best idea in the room. I like to work with really smart, creative people because honestly, they're going to make the project better. Chris, that goes without saying, that I think you're an incredibly creative and gifted person.
We do work with other collaborations too, so designers doing the poster, or musicians doing the music. I think that you have to take that approach, and really trust that people are going to bring their skill set to the project, and really have that trust with the people that you're working with or hiring.
Chris: Yeah. 100%, and well, thank you. Also, I think the only thing that I can really add is that over time, we started off a little closer together in our interests with regards to the partnership, and over time, we've gone in different directions in terms of Mike, I think, used to be more involved in the creative process, and then Mike went down a path of more the logistical, technical process.
What's interesting, is now we've gone sort of full circle, and Generation Freedom was the first time that Mike was really participating in the editing process, and really giving creative notes. That was invaluable feedback, because as a viewer who's also got more experience in high-end production, like his eye was so attuned, that it was really helpful, and it was really valuable. It really, ultimately, expedited the process, because we cut the documentary in a very, very short window of time, given how much footage we had. That constant back and forth was extremely beneficial.
“There are going to be things where you really have to swallow your pride and know, this isn't going to work."
Ultimately, as Mike said, may the best idea win, is really what you have to keep in your head, and not have an ego about it, and not be overly attached. There would be certain things that he would point out, and then edit, that I would try to sneak through on multiple cuts and going, "Oh, maybe he won't notice this time, and if he doesn't notice, it'll be good." He would totally notice if it was something, and then there were a few that I got past him, and that's fine.
Michael: Well, it's because it worked in the end.
Chris: Right. It's because I knew what I wanted ultimately, it just wasn't working early on. Yeah. No, there are things like that, where you really have to swallow your pride and know, "Okay, this isn't working." As Mike has gone full circle through logistics, back to a creative input, I've gone through a more cursory interest in logistics and business and things like that, and we've sort of managed to meet and intertwine at different stages, and ultimately it's been fruitful. It's been helpful.
How to edit content with so much source material
Bob: I'm curious since you mentioned the documentary and the footage and so forth, how many hours of footage did you have, that you trimmed down to a finished product? What was that length?
Chris: Our interviews I think were roughly, what? 15 hours? 12 to 15, somewhere in there?
Michael: I think it was 15 and some change.
Michael: That was just the interviews. I mean, we shot a ton of B-roll footage as well, and for your audience, B-roll is the footage that you put in when there's not a talking head on the screen. Landscapes...
Chris: Working on a computer, or…
Michael: Exactly, the pick-up shots.
Michael: Let's say 15 and a half to 20 hours of footage.
Chris: Yeah, somewhere in there sounds pretty reasonable.
Bob: Then it was edited down to how long, for the finished product?
Chris: Just over an hour and a half, so 96-97 minutes? Somewhere in there?
Michael: Yeah, which is actually really helpful to us as well, because we now have all of this extra footage, and so what we're doing for our audience that we're building through Leadpages, is putting out little bits of bite-sized information that didn't actually make it into the documentary. We're approaching it like how you would see special editions of DVDs, like when DVDs were a thing. They would come out with all of this bonus footage. We've been able to take all that extra footage and almost make a making of our documentary and put out all this extra content, which is incredibly helpful, because we're working on building a bigger audience over a long period of time, so we can put that stuff out.
Chris: For free.
Michael: Yeah, for free, essentially, yeah.
Chris: It's super actionable for people, too. That's the cool thing.
It's like the content that we're able to put out that didn't make... There's so much that didn't make the cut that's extremely valuable, helpful information for somebody who wants to start an online business and the fact that we have this extraneous stuff that when we have a place to put it is pretty awesome.
Bob: I was going to ask, how do you find, when you have such rich material, you have to say no to something and cut something. How do you make that decision? What are some of them, I don't know, I'm a former teacher, so I use terms like Rubric.
Chris: That's one of my favorite terms, actually.
Bob: What criteria are you using to make those difficult decisions?
Chris: Yeah, that’s the collaborative process where we went back and forth. Ultimately, how it started top-down, I would cut together just the interview with each person, and then I would put that up on our Vimeo, on our private Vimeo, and Mike was able to make notes, and he would go through and say, "This works for the movie. This might work for special features. This might work for just to keep on the shelf somewhere." Then I would take all of the stuff that he noted for the movie, and we had an outline for how we wanted the movie to go, and I would plug those clips into each section of the outline.
Then we had a four-hour cut, and then it was a matter of doing the same thing on each section, and just throwing away what didn't work, putting it somewhere else. I think it also helps to have a different mindset. I tell this to people a lot. Don't delete, just say, "I'll use this later somewhere else." I do that with writing. I never delete anything anymore. I put it in a folder that says, "For later." It's the same with the film, because we knew, again, that we were going to have other places to share this, be it in the free featurettes, or in our bonus materials for the actual packages, the movie. You're never really throwing anything away. It's just what works for this part of it, which happens to be an hour-and-a-half film.
Michael: Yeah, and I would say, just to expand on that. If people are interested in the video specifically, Vimeo is a great tool. I could truly go and watch the cut, and then make a specific note on a specific time code for whether something didn't make sense, or whether I thought it needed to be earlier in the edit. My job was really to focus on what would make sense, and what would be the biggest value for the audience, in a 90-minute piece. That's how I approached all of the different rough cuts from my perspective.
Bob: That's great wisdom, I think, for any creative process. I love this idea of “for later.” I use the term of not just archive, but an “idea vault.” If something is just not ready for now, it's comforting to know it's still somewhere.
Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely.
How to use Leadpages with Gumroad
Bob: You mentioned a moment ago that you're using Leadpages to help get the extra featurettes and bonus coverage out. How else are you using Leadpages for Generation Freedom, and any other projects you're working on? I'd love to know how you're using our software and the marketing of your projects?
Michael: Leadpages is really the center of Generation Freedom. It's the main hub that holds it all together. It is our main website. If someone signs up for some bonus content, that sends them through our email list, and that's how we're building that over a period of time. We're currently only selling the documentary through that landing page. We're using a tool called Gumroad to actually deliver the product to the end-user. It's really Gumroad and Leadpages talking to each other. Once someone clicks to buy on Leadpages, they'll be signed up for our email list, and they will also receive the product through Gumroad.
Then on the ShoHawk.com site. For our filmmaking blog, we're using it, of course for all of our opt-ins, and then for our podcasts, we'll also create bonus content and send people specifically to specific lead pages that we set up.
Bob: Is there any specific type of content you found from your podcast that gets more opt-ins than others?
Michael: That's a good question.
Chris: That's a great question.
Michael: Chris, do you want to take that one?
Chris: Honestly, I think that's more your arena, but we’ve tried multiple things, and I think you have more of the eye on the backend data. I've tried to just produce a lot of the content.
Michael: Yeah, I mean what Chris has done in the podcast is expanded on each episode and given more detail to dive into what he's talking about in each podcast episode. These are downloadable PDFs or checklists...
Chris: It's like a book.
Michael: It's basically a book that expands on each podcast episode. I think in the back end, I've seen checklists do really well. I know that's nothing new for your audience, but our audience really eats checklists up.
Bob: Yeah, and I love this idea of an audio content upgrade. We talk about content upgrades all the time, and seeing it that way, from a podcast lens I think is really helpful.
Who to turn to for marketing lessons
Bob: We just have a little bit of time remaining. I'd love to know if the two of you are listening to any podcasts, or reading any marketing books that are really firing you up, and give you ideas on how to get the word out more about what you do.
Michael: Yeah, I just read the latest Seth Godin book, which it really helped contextualize what we're doing, and Chris, I know you just read This Is Marketing as well. For me, it wasn't anything incredibly new, but it was a good reminder of how to put all of our marketing into perspective, and really getting back to basics.
Another one that I always go back to, is Jeff Walker's Launch, and that's the approach that we're taking with building our audience, is giving away those free content upgrades, or giving away our scenes by doing it almost in a launch style sequence.
Chris: Yeah. I would agree. As far as podcasts and, I guess, books as well. My podcast taste is pretty across the map. I honestly don't listen to a lot of business podcasts anymore.
As far as books go, I am really an evangelist lately for Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker, which I think is important for any entrepreneur to read because sleep is highly neglected by most people in general, most Americans in general, but also most entrepreneurs especially, and the scientific breakdown of why sleep is important, and effective, and helpful for whatever you do, ultimately. Your health is pretty important.
The other one that I read recently that has actually positively impacted our creative partnership is the book, Like Brothers by Mark and Jay Duplass. The Duplass brothers are filmmakers. Well known in the indie circuit. If you don't know who they are, you definitely know some of their work, just look them up. As I said, they're brothers and their creative collaboration spans from obviously their childhood to now, through music, through film, through television, and learning how they communicate with one another has definitely been quite the learning process and helpful. Any tools like that are always helpful.
Bob: Is that one of the actors in The League.
Chris: That's Mark.
Michael: That's them.
Bob: Chris, you mentioned that your podcast tastes are a little bit eccentric. I know that members of Lead Generation always love a bit of escape from their daily grind of whatever they're doing. Feel free to drop one that's just totally out there, that you really geek out on, but that has nothing to do with business.
Chris: Yeah, well there are many. I'll try to keep them short. Lately, I've gotten really into the Empire Film podcasts, which is Empire Magazine doing a series of interviews that you just don't get to hear with filmmakers, and actors, and things like that. They're pretty in-depth, and it's just sort of a rarefied look. They can be anywhere from an hour to three hours. That's a lot of fun. It's almost like Inside the Actor's Studio as a podcast.
Then if you really want to go down a weird road that's just sort of fascinating, there's a podcast that I'm re-listening to called Heaven's Gate. I don't know if you've heard of it.
Chris: It's fascinating. It's about the Heaven's Gate Cult. It's a beautifully done docu-podcast, and the guy who hosts it and created it actually grew up in a cult. Not this one, but his insights into belief are really fascinating. Those are some weird eccentric ones that maybe your audience can run with.
Stay connected with Mike and Chris
Bob: Mike, where can people connect with you and Chris, and learn more about the documentary, and the work what you're doing for filmmakers?
Michael: The best place to connect about the documentary and just to see how we're putting Leadpages into action, and all the bonus material that I was talking about, is genfreedom.com/Leadpages. If you want to get into the filmmaking side of things, you can just visit us at ShoHawk.com.
Bob: Thanks a lot. Well, Mike and Chris, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of The Lead Generation. I really learned a lot, and I would love to you guys, maybe in a future episode, about the types of film equipment that you're using. Some of that can be pretty intimidating, so I thought I'd save that for another day. Thank you so much for joining us, and I hope people do check out the work that you're doing.
Chris: We'd love to come back, thank you so much.
Michael: Yeah, thank you so much.
Chris: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Michael: This was amazing.
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