This week we speak to Vanessa Cabrera, a business coach who helps her clients clear up their marketing mindset so they can develop a more effective social media strategy.
Vanessa shares lessons she's learned on her entrepreneurial journey, the four key ingredients to enacting positive change, and methods for getting out of your own way so you can have a greater impact on the lives of the people you serve.
- Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Struggling alone means it will take longer to reach your goals, and there’s no reason for it. Lean on your connections and help each other through your challenges.
- Lead your audience somewhere they can learn more about you. Landing pages can help you be crystal clear on where your audience can gain more value from you.
- Find an accountability partner. Help each other make your transformations happen, get through tough times, and grow your businesses.
- Consider speaking to a business coach when you feel stuck. The initial symptom of needing a coach is recognizing a plateau in your business growth. A coach can help you find clarity and move forward.
- Use your energy and passion for your business on social media. Managing your business’ social media accounts can allow for your energy to seep into your content and engagements. Your audience will notice.
- Use the social media platform that appeals to your strengths. You don’t need to be everywhere. Pick the platform where you can communicate with the most energy.
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Who is Vanessa Cabrera?
Bob Sparkins: Hey, Vanessa, thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of The Lead Generation.
Vanessa Cabrera: Thanks so much for having me, I'm super excited to be here.
Bob Sparkins: I'm really looking forward to this conversation because we're going to be diving into the ways that entrepreneurs can level up. They go from that stage of maybe they hit a plateau and they want to get to that next level, we're going to be digging into quite a bit about that during this episode but the first thing I'd like to dive into is how do you see the transformation of the clients that you work with? What are you most proud about that you're able to provide to them?
Vanessa Cabrera: Oh, man. We're starting off with a bang, aren't we, Bob?
Bob Sparkins: Yes.
Vanessa Cabrera: Okay. So the transformation is really what I live for, people come to me for social media marketing strategies and they're struggling with social media, they're overwhelmed, there's so many platforms, they lack focus and they just are lost. They don't know why other people are crushing it on social media and while they're doing all the things that they're supposed to be doing, live streaming, blogging, posting and nothing's working. They come to me and they're like, "Okay, just give me the strategy, that's what I need. I need a strategy and I need a plan." Although that's what we work on with them, I go a little bit deeper, well actually much deeper, because if your social media marketing isn't working, it really has nothing to do with what time you're posting, how many reels you put out there, it's really the energy in which you are showing up to your audience.
So what we dive into is, do you actually believe in what you're marketing? Are you fearful? Are you nervous that it's not going to work? Do you believe that the clients won't come, that no one will buy? So if that's the case, which let's just be honest, as an entrepreneur, we all have those fears and self-doubts, but no one's really taught us how to manage those and essentially that's really what's been holding my clients back. So once we dig into the root cause of what's really holding them back from showing up as who they really are on social media, nothing's going to change. So we work on what I call their marketing mindset and being like, "Okay, what's really going on?" So once they're allowed to finally empty out their bucket and really be honest with themselves and be like, "Okay, Vanessa, I don't believe in my program." Or, "I think I have to hustle." Or all this stuff and it's different for everybody.
So once we get to the root cause and then we start to work on and eliminate those limiting beliefs, that voice in your head, Bob you know what I'm talking about, that voice in your head that it's got to be hard, that it's not going to work, all that stuff, that's when the real transformation happens. So it's the actual internal work and so once we do that work and then they come back with a strategy, just a very simple social media strategy, everyone thinks it's the strategy, it's not. Then once they have a very simple plan, they're like, "Oh, I could do this and I can do that" and I can literally see the light bulbs going off in them. Then once they get out of their own way, they have all these different ideas on how to create content, on how to communicate to their audience and how they can help them, all these things and it just starts to flow.
It's the only way I can describe it because that's what I hear from my clients all the time, they're like, "Vanessa, what did you do to me? It's just starting to flow, it's just easy, it's like I was stuck, I was trapped and now the water's turned on." You turn on the water and it's just flowing and it becomes easy and that's where we want my clients to get to. So the transformations is everything and it's different for everybody, I start scrolling through LinkedIn or Instagram or Facebook, it doesn't matter and there she is live streaming or a post or whatnot and I'm like, "Who is this chick? She's completely different." That's when I get those messages that, "Oh my gosh, another client came in and another lead came in and someone messaged me here." She's like, "It cannot be this simple." I hear that all the time and I'm like, "It is." So the transformation is what I live for.
Bob Sparkins: That's awesome. I love the ability to bring magnetism to life for people who might have developed some form of shield over time. I think it's going to be cool to dig into some of the methods that you help people to do that but let's go back in time just a little bit to maybe the first way that you made money outside of a normal job, childhood or later as a teenager, where you felt like there's an entrepreneur inside of you. What was that for you?
Vanessa Cabrera: Oh my gosh Bob, you just triggered a memory that I haven't thought about in years. So my father was part of the coin-operated industry. Coin operated entertainment industry, meaning you would put a coin into an arcade game, I have to explain this for the audience and played Pacman and whatnot. So he actually sold Pacman for a living, which is really cool. He got me a job where I was responsible for putting together those pinball things, where it starts, I forgot, I can't even remember the names, but you push it and the pinball starts, right?
Bob Sparkins: The plunger.
Vanessa Cabrera: Yes, I had to put those together. I remember I had to put together 300, this is now child labor, as I'm describing it. So I remember I had to put 300 together and they had to be ready Sunday night because the truck was going to pull into our garage and pick them up.
So I was assembling them, I remember every Sunday night watching TV and just assembling these things for pinball and I was getting paid pretty well. I was getting paid every week and I'm like, I can assemble 500, I can assemble 600 and I'll never forget that feeling of getting that first big paycheck besides babysitting, things like that where I was like, Whoa. I was like, I can do this when I want, I remember that feeling, I of course, waited till Sunday night, back then procrastinated but that was the first realization of wow, I can make money on my own time and not necessarily had to clock. Wow Bob, I completely forgot about that.
Bob Sparkins: That's great, I love it. I thought you might tell me that you had somebody from the neighborhood come over and you paid them like a cut to get you to double your output, maybe that's the next version of your life.
Vanessa Cabrera: But we did have kids from the neighborhood come in and test the video games because my dad was fixing them, so I was like the most popular chick on the street because he would fix them in the garage and then we would have to come test them out to make sure that they're working.
Bob Sparkins: As an avid arcade player myself, especially in the early nineties, late eighties, I can say thank you to you and your dad for putting those together.
Vanessa Cabrera: You are welcome.
Bob Sparkins: So let's jump forward now to the first kind of iteration of what Vanessa Cabrera's Enterprises look like. You've been doing some form of social media campaigns for either a business or for clients for a little bit before you started more of the business coaching side. What got you started into that area and what made you realize that it wasn't just about what time of day to post and that kind of thing that took you to that next level of where you are now?
Vanessa Cabrera: So I started doing social media campaigns for people. So this is when I left corporate and people were just always asking me, I just really understood social media intuitively., I kind of just got it, I'm like, Oh, this is a way for people to connect, not necessarily market. So I always had that methodology in the back of my head and so that's probably why my campaigns when working for corporate and then implementing the campaigns for my clients worked so well, it was beyond just marketing. So I started doing campaigns like contests, I remember I did my first hashtag contest on Instagram, I did a Facebook contest for a client of mine for their business pages. It was always fun, always easy and my client was blown away. So everyone was always asking me, Vanessa, how are you doing this? And I just really understood it from the very, very beginning.
So then when I figured out that I didn't want to do that anymore because it was getting more and more difficult to manage somebody else's social media for them and mine, it just became very apparent to me that I would never be able to manage someone else's social media platforms as well as they can because I don't have the passion for their business. I will never have the passion for their business, only they would. So I stepped away and I knew I'm like, I would be better consulting corporations. I would be better as a business coach, kind of pulling that out and simplifying it for them and being like, you don't need overcomplicated Facebook ads and confusing funnels and all this stuff that's out there that people think that they have to do. You just got to dig in and just talk about your business in such a way where you love it.
When I sit down and talk to my clients, it's very apparent that they love what they do, so once I see that, I'm like, you're going to be just fine on social media if you bring that energy to it. So that's how I made the transition because it was an epiphany where I'm like, I'm never going to rock their social media platforms because I don't have the passion for their businesses as they do. That makes sense?
Bob Sparkins: It certainly does and I think that brings up another point, which is I've seen from you and a lot of other really good social media strategists, the importance of authenticity and if you don't have that authenticity, then in times we live in, you're just not going to go very far. So I love the idea that you mentioned at the very beginning that your transformation is really about bringing them to life in a way that shows that they love what they do. It seems like in knowing you from working with Leadpages and so forth, that you had an intuitive sense of what do people need to hear from you and what can they take on as a question in order to discover for themselves what's possible? I think that's what makes really good coach.
You recently went through a gauntlet of certifications to give yourself some more tools that took your intuition and more formalized it. So talk to us a little bit for those people out there who are pretty good at what they do as a business coach themselves and they've been thinking, should they get certified? Should they not get certified? Why did you decide to get certified in these modalities as opposed to just relying on your innate abilities by themselves?
Vanessa Cabrera: I love that word by the way, gauntlet. A gauntlet of certification, I'm so going to use it. So I've been a business coach consultant for over 10 years now and so I was never certified, and I don't believe that you have to be certified because I had a very successful business for nine years. However, I've always reinvested in myself every year, so I take a look at my business, where I'm at, what's going on and after the pandemic, my clients did very well. I mean, they were kicking and taking names 100%. However, there are some where I'm like, Oh man, I just know she could have gone so much farther, she's just a badass. I'm like, What could I have done? What could I have said to help her get there? So as I was thinking about that, I'm like, no one teaches you how to be a coach, no one teaches you how to be a consultant.
In my brain, in my model of the world, consultants were people who were in a corporate job for 40, 50, 60, 140 years, they have all this experience, they have all this knowledge, they retire and they become consultants. Well, I became a consultant very, very young, so I just started talking about what I knew, which was social media, email marketing, all the things. So I got introduced to NLP—neurolinguistic programming—by another amazing colleague of mine, Stephanie Lou, who's in the digital marketing world herself, and she's a live streamer as well. So she started talking about this on our live streams, I'm like, What is she talking about? She's a live streamer, that's her niche. So I reached out to her and we had this conversation and I'm like, I'm looking to better be able to communicate is the bottom line, and I'm like, can this help me?
She's like, absolutely. So I moved forward with the NLP practicum last year and Bob, let me tell you, it was an absolute game changer for me. Really, it's like the psychology, so it's like the 101, but it taught me how people take in information. We're all different human beings, no one's built the same, we're wired differently up here. So I then understood how different individuals take in information, now imagine having that knowledge. The difference it would make, especially as a business coach, to be able to communicate with your clients in such a way where not only I'm able to eliminate all the stuff that's going in there, but communicate it faster where change really happens at a much faster pace where they're like, Oh, oh my gosh, Vanessa gets me, she hears me, she feels me, and she's able to help me.
So that was last year and so then I decided to continue my education with NLP because it was making such a monster difference, not only in my business, but in the businesses of my clients. I'm like, Holy cow, I'm like, Where was this? Instead of learning home economics, okay nothing against home economics, but I remember specifically learning how to sew a pair of shorts, why wasn't I taught this back then? It's amazing the difference that this has made, not just in my business but in my overall life. So I just went through the last gauntlet of certifications and became master certified in NLP, timeline therapy, hypnotherapy, all that stuff and it's really helped me be able to communicate much, much better with my prospects, with my audience, but more importantly with my clients.
Bob Sparkins: Awesome.
The Reason for Needing a Coach
Bob Sparkins: So I'd like to dive in now, let's pretend for a minute that there's somebody listening out there that is perhaps thinking to themselves that they have reached that kind of plateau that a lot of folks that come to you reach. I think it's a pretty natural state of being for a lot of entrepreneurs to get some success and feel good about it and then they just hit this, it's not necessarily a wall, but it's like a plateau and they just don't know what to do to go to that next level. So let's talk about that marketing mindset a bit. What are some initial symptoms, let's say, that somebody can recognize in themselves that that plateau is in fact a real situation for them that requires maybe a little bit of coaching or at least some internal work to go to that next level?
Vanessa Cabrera: Yeah, I think what I hear a lot when people come to me is that, Vanessa, I'm stuck. I hear that a lot, Vanessa I'm just stuck, I'm trying all these things and nothing's working that used to work. So that's what I hear a lot is, I don't know how to move forward, I don't know what the right thing to do is, I just don't know, I know I can be successful. They're ambitious, they see all these other people crushing it, and they want that too and I understand that because I was one of them. I sat where they sit now, I was stuck, I hit a plateau, why isn't this working? I do this for a living, how am I not able to get clients on social media? This is what I teach, all the stuff. So that's what they come to me for when they're just really stuck and have no clear direction or what to do next.
Four Prerequisites to Change
Bob Sparkins: What kind of question do you like to ask them that helps them to either explore the cause or the solution? I guess they're hand in hand in a lot of times, but what might be an initial question that they can be reflecting on?
Vanessa Cabrera: Oh, I go deep Bob. So now you want me to reveal.
Bob Sparkins: Not reveal at all, just that first nugget that helps people wake up a little bit.
Vanessa Cabrera: So like I said, I go deep with them and I ask a lot of questions. So obviously if something's not working when it comes to their social media marketing, then something has to change. So there's four prerequisites to change, so number one, we need clarity, we need to just take a step back and really figure out what it is that we really want. No one asks us this, no one takes the time to ask us this and I've basically gone through my own program. So I've gone through this process and so when they were asking me these questions, What do you really want? When someone asks you that, you stop and think about it. So number one is clarity, so we get to that first, why are you live streaming and email marketing and posting? What's the purpose?
I know everyone wants to make money, I know everyone wants a successful business, but why, for what reason? So that's number one. Then the second thing is really then getting into what the confidence of it and so when you're clear and then you start to gain confidence, that's when we start to eliminate all those negative beliefs, we got to work on that first. So we get to the root cause of that. I'm afraid of being judged, I'm afraid it won't work, all this. Then some stuff comes up that they didn't even know. They're like, Oh, I didn't even know that was a problem because we don't take the time. So then it's confidence. Then the third step in the prerequisites for change is really taking strategic action, now this is when the plan comes in, everyone comes to me for strategy, we don't even get to that for a while until we work out all this first.
Then we take strategic action towards what it is that we really want, we can see it now, we're focused, all that stuff is cleared out, and then we take strategic action towards that. Then the fourth prerequisite for real change is focus, fiercely focused where everything else is just, you don't focus on anything else, you're not scrolling on social media 24/7 anymore. A lot of people think I'm on social media a lot, I'm actually not. I go in, I post, I support my clients and I get out, I'm very conscious of what I let in here for me to stay focused on my own business goals and my own life goals. So it's those four things that we work on together.
How to Increase The Speed of Growth
Bob Sparkins: Cool and as people are putting that into some form of actionable plan, I imagine they run into a roadblock or two, is there a common thing that they run into where they need that extra bit of guidance or that extra bit of, I guess, fishing something out of somebody that you tend to see?
Vanessa Cabrera: Yeah. Well once they're in action, once they're in strategic action, I mean they're fired up, this is where the transformation happens and so the content just starts to flow. So from there, it's really just accountability, going in alone, being an entrepreneur alone is really hard. I struggled for four years with a newborn, single mom, all this and I'm just was struggling and it's because I was trying to do it on my own. One of my coaches, I'll never forget, told me that it's a rookie mistake trying to do it on your own when there's help out there that will help you get there faster from someone who's done it, who's been there. So from there, when they're in that mode and they're a high vibe and they're confident and they're clear and the content just starts to flow, from there, it's just accountability.
Week to week of like, okay Vanessa this is what I'm going to do, this is how I'm going to throw down, okay cool. If they don't do it, then they don't show up for their session with me. So get it done. By then social media marketing is fun, they get it, they're like, Oh my God, I'm loving social media again. I'm like, yeah, you're loving those dollars too right? She's like, oh my God, yeah. Social media becomes real fun when you start to make money from it. So I wouldn't say if there are any roadblocks throughout the process of working with me after that, it would just be the accountability. Also if something isn't working, then we tweak it, that's what marketing is. Oh, Vanessa, this didn't land so much, okay cool, let's tweak it, how can we say this differently? How can we tweak the strategy? That's all.
Choosing the Right Platform
Bob Sparkins: Cool and you're talking a lot about the idea of them attracting business through social content, I'm assuming that that comes in the form of both text and video and all this kind of stuff. How can somebody become more magnetic on camera for those that are doing video? What are some of the ways that you're helping them through the mental shifts so that they show up on camera as a magnetic attractive, attractable? I don't want to say attractive in the sense of physical appearance so much, but you understand my point. They're attracting the right kinds of ideal clients to them.
Vanessa Cabrera: So I've always said that, and this is what I tell my clients, you don't have to do all the things, you don't have to live stream, you don't have to do reals, you don't have to do anything. The only thing you have to do is figure out the best way you are able to communicate, because it's different for everybody. So I had a client, she's brilliant, but she's like, I'm not live streaming. Nope, not doing it. A lot of my clients think I'm going to force them to live stream, I don't. What I do is I get to the heart of how they enjoy creating content and so when they're ecstatic, when they're confident, they can't wait to get up and share what they have to show, it's a different vibe, it's a different energy. That's attracting their ideal clients to them. Whether it's video, blogging, it does not matter.
It doesn't matter, it's just the energy from which they show up to and you can't fake that, you cannot fake that. You can tell the people who are just posting just to post versus those who are loving what they do, are very articulate, can communicate very well and the clients just start coming in. So that's the only thing that they have to figure out, whether it's live streaming, reels, posting, blogging, I'm like, I don't care, I don't give a dang what you want to do, just as long as we figure out together what you enjoy doing. So imagine I would say this, okay, I'll give you an example Bob, if I had to market myself on Twitter, I would fail, fail miserably, twitter gives me a headache, I never understood it, I don't get it right and so if I had to go to work on Twitter every single day, I would fail, I'd be like, Oh my God, what am I going to tweet today?
Are we still tweeting? Can I live stream? You know what I'm saying? So imagine that energy rather than me being able to go live on Facebook, which is where it is, where my jam is, I go to work on Facebook every day, I love it, I understand it. So I'm like, okay, where's the camera? This is what I'm going to drop today. It's a different vibe. So if I had to go work on Twitter, oh my God, the stress of it all, and guess what? That's going to come out in your content. You can't hide from that, so that's the difference. That's why they show up the way they do and attract those who they're supposed to work with.
How to Create Endless Content
Bob Sparkins: Awesome. So let's hypothetically say that there's a person out there listening who they do love the Facebook Live, they're doing the live streaming thing, they get their energy level to that right vibe and everything, is there a particular type of content or rather topic that you find that your clients use maybe as an introductory topic? I know that you work with people across a lot of different industries and so forth, but I'm just curious if there's kind of a piece of pillar content that you wind up telling people, this is the kind of question you should be answering for your audience, or this is the kind of thing you should be teaching to your audience.
Vanessa Cabrera: No, because my clients are badass experts, they know what their audience wants. If they are stuck as far as ideas for creating content, one of the things I've always talked about or one of the ways I never run out of ideas, that's a question I get. They're like, Vanessa, how are you constantly creating content? I listen, I listen for questions. I listen for questions from my clients during our private sessions, I listen for questions on podcasts or interviews, I listen for questions in my Facebook group, there's questions all over the place and then I answer them. That way you're not guessing if this is the content that your audience wants you know because if it's one prospect who asked you this question, I guarantee you there's thousands others out there that have the same question. So just listen for questions, you'll never go wrong.
Bob Sparkins: So what's one of the most fun questions you've had recently that you've answered on one of your live streams?
Vanessa Cabrera: Oh my gosh, what's NLP? So from my post and I haven't even done a live stream about it to be honest with you, so I'm working on it, I'll probably go live this week for the first time since attaining my gauntlet of certificates and probably talking about it but yeah, I've gotten that question a lot. I've gotten questions of Vanessa, how do you create content? How are you so confident? I've gotten that a lot. How do I monetize my live streams? Which social media platform is the best for me? When's the right time to go live? When's the right time? Should I be doing reels? Should I be focusing on reels? Should I break up with Facebook? It's on and on and on.
So that's why I'm like, it's a plethora, I never run out of content ideas because I get so many different questions as my clients do too. You start to listen, they're like, Oh my gosh, I have a year's worth of content. I'm like, I'm sure you have five years worth of content, you just took the time to listen. So there's all different kinds but the most popular one right now is what is NLP and how can it help my marketing?
Taking the Social Connection to the Next Level
Bob Sparkins: I would love to explore one of the questions you just brought up, perhaps my final tactical question, which is you've been talking about the visibility factor, You've been talking about the attracting the right people to you, how do you take them from the social connection and have them turn into a client? Are they doing that through a specific method, consulting calls, some kind of webinar? How do you get that call to action in place where you see people have a lot of success if they may not be natural salespeople?
Vanessa Cabrera: So it's different for everybody. Again, my program's not cookie-cutter, so it's what makes best sense for them. Obviously to land clients or corporate contracts or stages or book deals or whatever it is that they're going after, you have to have a conversation with these people, you have to have a business meeting, you have to have a sales call, whatever the case may be. So that generally is where they should be leading their prospects as to have a conversation and see where it goes. I mean that's just kind of business 101.
What is the Role of Landing Pages in a Social Media Strategy?
Bob Sparkins: Yeah, for sure. I did think of another question for you, which is when people are doing social selling and community building and so forth, there is a role to play for landing pages. I know you're quite adept at using landing pages at the right stage of the journey, what do you tell your folks about bringing people off of social channels onto your email list, through landing pages? What's that kind of conversation like for you.
Vanessa Cabrera: So that's strategy, that's part of the strategy, so once they are starting to show up very differently, right after all that internal work, you have to lead your audience somewhere, so you have to be crystal clear on what it is that you want your audience to do. So you have to be crystal clear on how someone can work with you, pretty simple. There's all these strategies and all this stuff, I'm like, just be upfront. Just be up front if you're ready to throw down with me, go to this page, let's have a conversation. So when they don't have anything, I'm like, you can create a lead page. I used the Leadpages for God, seven-eight years? I don't even know. A lot of people came to me and asked me to do their website in the very beginning because I wasn't clear and I wasn't communicating clear back then and I'm like, no, I don't do websites.
So yeah, of course when they have their social media marketing strategy, they have to lead them somewhere, so what is the call to action? Marketing 101, you're talking, someone's interested in working with you, buying from you, you have to lead them somewhere. So we're always talking, that's part of the strategy, they got to lead them somewhere.
Tools to Make Managing a Business Simpler
Bob Sparkins: Cool and last question. What kind of tools are you utilizing for your own business that you just can't live without? This isn't a softball question to get you to talk about Leadpages, I'm interested in other tools that you're using as well for yourself and maybe that you tell your clients about.
Vanessa Cabrera: So I've always been using Constant Contact, I'm Old School I've always been using Constant Contact for my email for, I don't even know how long, how long have I been it's 13 years and then before that, when I was in corporate Leadpages is my other tool. This is where I send everyone, it's always a landing page. So it's just easy, simple, direct and then I have recently discovered Descript where I'm a live streamer, but I just found out that this originally, they created for podcasting too. So what you could do with your live streams or your podcast, you can upload it to Descript and you can have it transcribed in a minute and then turn it into a blog or take out quotes or whatnot. You can edit it down to two, three-minute videos, it's a very sinful tool for repurposing your content.
So me and my team are currently testing that out but the reason I love it is because all my tools that I use for me and my brain Constant Contact, Leadpages and Descript are user-friendly, easy. I use simple all the time Bob, that is my number one go-to word. I want my business and my life to be simple, I don't like overcomplicated. So those are really the only tools I use. I don't use a lot of tools in my business because I don't need them.
Ask for Help
Bob Sparkins: That's awesome and my final question for you is, as you do run into obstacles as any entrepreneur would, do you have a mantra or saying that you come back to right the ship in a quick fashion?
Vanessa Cabrera: Yeah, ask for help. Ask for help. I have a business coach, I've had a business coach for seven years now, there's no way I would be this far this fast in my business if I didn't have someone to turn to for help. So ask for help, there's no need to struggle alone, and if you are, it's just going to take you longer. This is the work that you just can't do on your own, I've always said, this is us in our business, we're like this, so in our face, you need someone outside to pull you out so you can see what's really going on and be able to fix whatever you're struggling with and move forward. So whatever I'm struggling with, that's what I say to myself, ask for help, reach out to your business coach, this is what's going on, how can you help? How can I move forward?
Bob Sparkins: Awesome. So you mentioned your Facebook Lives are typically where you like to play with the social channels, how can people find that page?
Vanessa Cabrera: So you guys can just befriend me, find me Vanessa Cabrera on Facebook, you can befriend me, I throw down on my personal page, so feel free to reach out.
Bob Sparkins: Awesome. Of course we'll have the links to what we talked about in our show notes. Vanessa, thank you so much for jumping on the call today and having a great conversation around the mindset that people can take on to really scale up in their businesses going forward. Thanks so much.
Vanessa Cabrera: Thanks so much for having me, Bob.
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